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TOPIC: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it?

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7406

  • LEE
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I wish there was a way to examine the relationship between Roll Angle and Directional Angle.

I experimented with adding "Stiffeners" to my Radar Strada'a after visually noticing (on video) how much my Ski's Roll Angle did not match the effort of my Body's Lean Angle. Yes in fact, the Stiffeners worked and my Bindings acted more like Reflex Bindings. With more sensitivity, more leverage and less forgiveness.

BUT, after most of 2 seasons, I finally noticed my enhanced Roll Angle also created a Ton of unwanted Drag and also enhanced my ability to create poor (TOO MUCH) Directional cross course Angle. (I worked with shortening the FD to allow a tad more slip to no avail....)

I believe; simply trying to grab as much "Angle" as possible just kills a stronger, bigger skier. There must be some kind of "Ideal" Happy medium between these two factors.(Roll and Directional Angle)

Then maybe optimum Roll/Directional Angles could be divided by one Technique factor!

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7407

  • AB
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How hardeth and whereth thy resist is most important!

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7408

If you read what I put in my post on the first page and what Bill Gladding wrote in his last post, there is a common theme here of getting "UP ON THE BOAT." Forget about thinking Wide, instead focus on getting up on the boat...If you are UP on the boat you are WIDE.

Think of it another way...While you can be WIDE and NOT up on the boat, you cannot be UP on the boat and NOT be wide.

Andy tried to point this out to me a long time a go in different words...I had to experiment on my own for a long time to finally understand what he was talking about. Bill spelled it out really clear in his last post...If your up on the boat and carry speed through your turn in for the gates, you are in a position to carry ANGLE and SPEED. This will result in great carry out, which will place you up on the boat again to repeat it...When your carrying more speed through the whole pass you DO NOT have to PULL as hard to sustain the Angle...Speed Equals Angle...Once you get slow, it takes a lot more strength in your pull to get the angle back or sustain it.
The following user(s) said Thank You: AB, Bill Gladding, DanE

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7409

  • LEE
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I fully agree with getting up on the Boat. That would equal "Rope Angle" from the Pylon. In other words; "Wide"

As far as Directional Angle (of the Ski)and Roll Angle (of the Ski)and Load goes, if we have not concluded the Article by Rossi "The Impossible Line" is incorrect, then it seems that we still need to achieve much of what Rossi has already stated.

skiall6.com/articles/chris-rossi/64-the-impossible-line

Rossi; "The idea is to only ski with the maximum angle that DOES NOT put load on the rope. This ski angle is so much less than you have ever skied with it will inevitably scare the living you know what out of you".

This is especially where a bigger, stronger skier can trip up over and over again. Doing the same things, yet expecting different results...

I guess for me, I have found that GETTING WIDE is very easy. It is the STAYING WIDE that is tuff!

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7410

Ed, you really hit the nail straight on the head when you say "get up to speed and you won't have to work so hard“.
Use the pullout before the gates and the following gate cut to get your mass moving then off you go.
I'm sure most of you have " hit it right" every once in a while thinking "why don't I always do it like this?"
It just feels soo easy when you really get your speed up to stay one step ahead of the boat.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ed Johnson

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7414

I would add to the following that the better pace you are able to generate the more angle you will be able to take without excessive load on the rope.

As far as Directional Angle (of the Ski)and Roll Angle (of the Ski)and Load goes, if we have not concluded the Article by Rossi "The Impossible Line" is incorrect, then it seems that we still need to achieve much of what Rossi has already stated.

skiall6.com/articles/chris-rossi/64-the-impossible-line

Rossi; "The idea is to only ski with the maximum angle that DOES NOT put load on the rope. This ski angle is so much less than you have ever skied with it will inevitably scare the living you know what out of you".
The following user(s) said Thank You: LEE

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7416

  • AB
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Some interesting points here. Note that Nate says "appears to make it look like he is light in the line".
I have seen him comment that he is NOT light on the line at all. He resists a ton to get his angle early and tries to transition in the middle of the wakes, at the latest.

Parish and Nate talk about widthi

I think the key is load before the wakes and not after. Parrish says he wants to be light in the handle in the wakes. Keep good posture and core engaged to ride the momentum out and get the ski on a wider path by moving it from in front of the handle to behind it.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7418

  • LEE
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Agreed. but, "Light on the line" shouldn't be Limp Noodle either! As referenced in my post (#3449) from 2 yrs. ago by KC Wilson. I think he really hits the nail on the head regarding Light on the Line and efficiently carrying speed throughout the pass... skiall6.com/forum/10-slalom-course-talk/...technique-efficiency

i.e. “a lot of people talk about trying to ski lighter and it translates to them just being very soft… The idea in reality deals with carrying your speed throughout the entire pass... Being aggressive behind the boat doesn't mean you are heavy on the line. Being heavy on the line comes from gaining all your speed instantly right off of the buoy”...



Personally, I kinda wish the words Light on the Linewould disappear from our skiing vocabulary! It is such a perceived and relative statement. Like; I can rip 300lbs off of the floor in a Deadlift. For some skiers, that would be very Heavy (maybe impossible) and for some others ( a few) it would be relatively light. So, is 300lbs Heavy or Light?

I also liked what Nate and CP had to say.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7419

  • AB
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Interesting comments on video of skiers..

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7422

  • LEE
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Aren't these Topic discussions entertaining?!?! I mean, with all that is involved with any one single aspect of Slalom, it is at the very least entertaining to try to isolate and define anything!

This Topic is about "Get Wide, How do we Do it"??? I have concluded, we cannot GET WIDE if we don't START WIDE. This is surely the Keystone. But, it is only one side of the coin. Because, after #1 Ball all bets are off, unless we do A LOT of other things correct from #1 to #2 and so on...

The other side of the coin (STAYING WIDE) has many moving parts. Even if we Start Wide and Get Wide, we cannot FINISH WIDE if we don't STAY WIDE!

No Silver Bullet! Rossi's article came out in 2008. (7 yrs ago!)Most of the advice is still spot on 7 yrs. later. The Wilson's, Mapple, Nate, TW and CP (among many others)have also dissected every aspect from Gate to Gate.

I guess the "answer" to the Topic question is multiple choice as well as; personal, with literally no wrong answers! Yet, it may also be about as simple or as complex as we individually choose to make it......

The End Justifies the Means?

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7423

  • AB
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pretty much..

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7424

  • BudDavis
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I agree.

If we are born into money, it can help, but we can blow it all and then have nothing.

We could be born into poverty and still become financially successful.

It is nice to pull out wide for the gate and try to carry that tempo through the course, but at any point in the course we could lose it all.

We could also not pull out for the gate and still run a decent pass. I heard Mapple ran 39.5off on one of his videos without pulling out for the gate.

Here is a video I did two and a half years ago where I did not pull out at 28off and 32off.

The moral of the story is to try and get a good gate, but if you do not get a good one, do not give up.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7425

  • AB
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Great point Bud. The fact that andy can run 39 like this just highlights the amount angle that he generates. It might be interesting for you to try this, particularly getting to one ball, and determine what you need to do in order to achieve this angle yourself. The purpose wouldn't be to run the pass, but merely find out how to drop further away, hip position, etc., in order to generate enough angle to make one ball turntable.

It might be a good practice drill for everyone.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7426

A lot of guys are talking about getting "angle" and width in the course. However in the West coast video produced by Mike Suyderhoud he comments that "it is not angle that gives you speed, but speed that gives you angle". I found his comment very interesting. Although I am not sure I completely understand it.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Dan Birch

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7429

  • BudDavis
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You are not alone David.

I do NOT dispute it, but I do not understand it.

I can clearly visualize turning a ski to different angle than the boat is pulling and therefore increase speed through angle.

I often do not maintain my out bound angle or cross course angle and ski with less angle and therefore increase my down course speed with the absence of angle.

I can also visualize a skier going straight behind a boat as the driver adds throttle which would increase speed without angle.

But again, I do NOT dispute it, but I do not understand it.

_____________________________________________


It took me a while before I understood "lean in the direction you want to go." But once I understood it, it helped me. So, maybe one day I will understand "speed creates angle." I am open-minded.
The following user(s) said Thank You: david38off

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7432

I think the "speed gives you angle" means that its relatively easy to complete a turn that points you across the course at the desired/sufficient angle. But, it is even easier to give all that angle back if you don't capitalize on it with cross-course speed. The speed gives you angle by not wasting your turn and getting subsequently dragged downcourse while your angle evaporates. The longer you take to get across that wake, the further downcourse you go. When you are further downcourse, you don't have as much angle to get you wide and early. And, you don't turn as optimally (likely into slack and with further delays caused by that).

I think it still ties into my comment about getting really good stack with upper body away immediately at hookup so that you maximize acceleration and get across the wake fast enough to preserve the angle you just created. I believe it also means what was said earlier about carrying speed through the whole course. You are not letting the boat take as much of your early/wide space and that allows you to continue to finish those turns the way you want - with a good cross course angle that you subsequently maximize with the pattern of acceleration again.
Goode XT - 65.25" with Wiley double high wraps
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Ranked in the top 50 for US Open Men's slalom

My skiing is like a box of chocolates...you never know what you're gonna get.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7433

  • AB
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I think the other take away that I am finally starting to realize, or maybe I am wrong, but it seems like after the second wake, where someone said Andy is "lifting" the ski, is where you want to be "light on the line". this accomplishes a couple things. You can maximize your runout to the buoy line, and you hide from ZO. Any pulling in this phase and ZO wants to react.

So my goal is to stay upright after the second wake, lifting the ski with bent knees, ever so softly at the end of the rope so as to maintain some tension in my hands, which means the rope is tight and at its furthest point from the boat. I am not sure how soft 250+ pounds can ever be on the rope, but..

Thoughts?
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Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7434

  • LEE
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david38off wrote:
A lot of guys are talking about getting "angle" and width in the course. However in the West coast video produced by Mike Suyderhoud he comments that "it is not angle that gives you speed, but speed that gives you angle". I found his comment very interesting. Although I am not sure I completely understand it.


GREAT POINT!! I do not have all of the answers. But, I am thoroughly convinced that simply leaning away from the Boat is Not the answer and especialally NOT if the skier is fairly strong. This will only create excess Drag and result in "Skiing the Impossible Line". (the very point of Rossi's article. -which he calls "Skiing Dumb"!)

Early speed is the Key. Most of us mortals create too much Late speed. This goes hand in hand with early and proper Directional (cross course) Angle, combined with sufficient Roll Angle of the ski. "Proper and Sufficient" but, NOT excessive... (sufficient Stack/Low anchor point goes w/o saying...)

Like Bud noted; Leaning in the Direction of travel or as Rossi and MB puts it; "Falling all the way to the wakes"... These examples are certainly Not Leaning back hard against the Boat and fighting for extra deg's of cross course angle.

One day I'll put this all together in my own skiing at the same time and Life will be so much simpler and easier!

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7436

  • AB
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Lean slightly forward with COM leading the charge as you leave the turn, then transition to ski out in front and knees pulled up to lighten the load and on a wider path than the handle after the wakes.

?
The following user(s) said Thank You: MISkier

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7460

I think you are on the right track but see if this makes sense. Arms straight and shoulders away with good momentum means your weight is swinging on the line with light pressure on the ski. This allows the ski to come up and out like Andy. When you separate (arms out) you are not swinging on the line the ski is supporting your weight. Hard for it to come up if you are bearing down hard on it. That is one of the differences I see between Andy and Jeff at the second wake.

My process when I hit the water is going to be start wide, be patient when I turn in, then remain committed to maintain my direction.

AB wrote:
I think the other take away that I am finally starting to realize, or maybe I am wrong, but it seems like after the second wake, where someone said Andy is "lifting" the ski, is where you want to be "light on the line". this accomplishes a couple things. You can maximize your runout to the buoy line, and you hide from ZO. Any pulling in this phase and ZO wants to react.

So my goal is to stay upright after the second wake, lifting the ski with bent knees, ever so softly at the end of the rope so as to maintain some tension in my hands, which means the rope is tight and at its furthest point from the boat. I am not sure how soft 250+ pounds can ever be on the rope, but..

Thoughts?

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7468

  • AB
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Good article from Seth on fundamentals and transition arm pressure. Trailing arm pressure is a key to allow proper transition (getting wide).

Seth article

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7493

  • AB
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Schnitz ran these pics on his FB page. I have been convinced this transition is the critical step to separate the men from the boys in super shortline slalom. All the top 41 skiers do it. Take video of yourself if you are struggling to run 38 and shorter, and aspire to get into this position. You lighten the ski on the water to reduce drag, keep your trailing arm bent and handle in tight, lighten grip and force on the leading arm allowing shoulders to remain square, get the ski behind the handle and out in front of you, then stand up as you go into the turn to allow maximum extension. It requires angle out of the buoys so you may begin this transition by the second wake, any later and you will be faster and narrower into the buoy.


Capture.PNG
The following user(s) said Thank You: MISkier, Bill Gladding

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 6 months ago #7615

So here is a thought on how to get wide. Obviously starting wide helps but from there your ski needs to go under the line straight away and if you are not bearing down to get to the right hand gate ball then you are are probably narrow...

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 5 months ago #7695

How to create space in the slalom course, by Matt Rini


TGAS.jpg

It was not a huge surprise that this won the voting contest. We learn from when we first run the course how hard it can be to get to the balls until we learn how to create enough space to set up early turns. Each time we speed up or shorten the rope the buoys seem to come faster and we go straight at them until we get the confidence to commit to the pass.

In a nut shell space is created by a higher edge angle of the ski. The more the ski is rolled over the more it will go across the lake. The flatter the ski is the more the boat is able to pull you down course. There are 2 factors that go into how much edge angle is necessary at each line length 1. is the speed of the boat 2. is the rope length. When I am coaching kids who are going up through the speeds and starting to get into short line I have scale for them to identify their lean angle. Lean angle is how much you have your ski between you and the boat. (see pic of T-Gas) As we lean over in the turn the ski rolls on edge, and we set our line across the lake the pull of the boat comes on and we are either set with enough edge angle to accept the forces of the boat OR we leave ourselves vulnerable and need to start fighting the boat to maintain what we have so the boat doesn't flatten out the ski at the centerline. The goal is find the amount of lean angle/leverage to where we can relax and let the boat swing us without the fear of the boat taking away the edge we have. After you run a pass ask yourself how much did I have to fight/pull to make that pass? Now run it again with a little more lean angle and watch how you can relax more and have more space before the ball.

TIME OUT

Now before I go any further all leans are NOT created equal. When I am talking about lean angle I am talking about an efficient position to apply edge angle to the ski. This position is a staked straight body position. As soon as the skeletal alignment is broken the edge angle to load ratio changes. Also our balance on the ski moves as the other 2 planes of balance compensate. Lean angle can create edge angle and allow you to relax and load the rope less OR if you are not stacked as you lean more the edge angle will increase yes and yes you will create a little more space but the load on the rope will go up way more and punish you or even take away your space right as you change your edge. The next article will address how to get stacked. Before you go and try to increase your lean angle do a quick posture check…try simply improving your posture and see how that affects your space before the ball.

TIME IN

As the speed goes up or the rope shortens the base lean angle/leverage for each pass increases. I try to have skiers identify what lean angle allows them to fully relax and be as early as they want to be. I then have them identify what number out of 10 that is. Then as they shorten or speed up, if they want to have the same amount of space then they have to increase that lean angle by 1. For example if we identify that at 28 off a skiers lean angle is 4/10 then when we shorten they must increase to a 5/10 OR expect to run straighter at the balls. Our natural tendency when we go to a harder pass is to back off as a result of the extra speed and swing of the pendulum. This slight reluctance or expectation of the pass being harder will allow the boat to take control and flatten the ski out a little through the wake and send you directly at the ball. If you have ever watched a pro from the boat when they run 28,32,35 and even 38 it is crazy how much space they can create. This is because they are working on a higher scale of lean angle/leverage based on what they need to feel at 39 &41. They are much further past the “base” lean angle then a skier who may be maxed out at 35 off.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ed Johnson

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 5 months ago #7697

Interesting - I always like what Matt says.
This could be (mis-) interpereted as "the rope gets shorter - need to go harder"

I could be wrong but aren't a number of the guys on these forums suggesting the opposite?

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 5 months ago #7699

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
Kevin,

For me, I have to back off as the rope gets shorter or I get too much speed.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 5 months ago #7700

For me the answer is, Get Harder, Quicker, and Shorter....I tell myself, like a Drill Sargent, "Slide-Spike-Swing-Counter." The results on the Video don't lie !!!

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 4 months, 3 weeks ago #9569

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
One of my students gets wider if he jumps the wake. If he tries to pull through the wake, it disrupts him and makes him narrow.
He is small and light weight. He skis 15off slow speeds.

Have any of you seen this in youth?

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 4 months, 3 weeks ago #9570

Back in the 90's, we were living in Kauai, where I had a course on the Wailua River. My Daughter from 8-12 would do that same thing. She did have a really good ability to drop in a good leveraged position for the gate turn in and at the turn balls, then pull like crazy, but, being scared of the wakes would jump them, and had built up enough momentum to make it to the turn balls. Then turn hard, drop in and do it again.

For Her 12th Birthday we sent her to Coble's ski school for the summer. Working with April, and seeing lots of other kids skiing there, she finally broke that habit. April also taught her to Trick and Jump.
Being around all these other Kids her age was a big influence. At the end of the summer she entered her first 3 event Tournament and was totally hooked after that.
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